I figured i'd put together a little "how to tell if it's an viet restoration" thread where i put up some pictures of obvious viet-bikes and point out easy ways to tell where the bike is originating from. The scooter community is very concerned about the growing number of these "Restorations" being imported into the country and ridden by typically scooterists new to the hobby. As always the phrase "let the buyer beware" is the best practice ...but there's something unjust and unethical about selling at BEST a money-pit and at WORST a deathtrap to the unwitting scooter buyer who hasn't done his/her research. The scooter community has responded with both proactive measures; attempting to bring light to this practice of vietnamese importing, and reactive measures; flagging suspect ebay or craigslist auctions for being misleading, false, or dangerous.

What's wrong with these scooters from a functional standpoint, you ask? I think the pictures from the following links should serve as proof as to what's really being sold on these ebay or craigslist auctions:

http://www.thevespawizard.com.au/the_black_vbb.htm

http://www.scootart.com/Asia/1/index.html


Scoot.net also has a vietnamese identification section on their FAQs, but very few know about this section. It can be found here : http://scoot.net/faq/Asian_Restorations

We'll start with this one that Craig posted yesterday.







1) Yellow rubber centerstand boots. The #1 giveaway that a bike is a vietnamese restoration...bar none.

2) It's a Sprint / Super / VBB. You've gotta be careful with these models - they are the ones that were imported on a grand scale to Southeast asia, so they are the models that are most commonly viet death traps painted up all pretty and sold to us yanks.

3) 2-tone paintjob / matching 2-tone seats. The asians are HUGE into matching seat upholstery with the paintjob. You don't see that much over here unless it's a theme bike. Many people over here refrain from doing 2-tone paintjobs anymore just because it LOOKS so asian and people don't want their bike confused for something off the boat.

4) PX plastic centermat. Notice that hard-plastic centermat, with the screws drilled in from the top down? They only used that mat on late-model Pseries bikes. For some reason, the asians LOVE that centermat and put it on any and every bike they can. Big giveaway.

5) Chrome stinger on an otherwise stock-looking exhaust. Another thing the asians are all about for some reason. People over here don't really do this either.

6) Generic chrome crashbars / front fender guard. Notice the little place where an emblem should go? Usually it would have a cuppini or a piaggio logo, but these guys didn't even bother with that... just a cheap knockoff.

7) The black gasket AROUND the lip of the gas tank. Normally a tank gasket is all but invisible sitting between the frame and the tank. The asians have this weird black plastic trim that they wrap around the lip of the tank. I'm not saying it's not nice ... it just is another giveaway that it's asian. The chrome gas-tank cap doesn't help either. This is supposed to be painted the color of the bike normally.

8) Normally the speedo is a dead giveaway as the asians tend to use bad Veglia knock-off speedos that are REALLY OBVIOUS...or they will use bajaj speedo's that are black with weird Tron-style font... this one looks like an authentic one from this angle, though.

9) Chrome rear-seat grab bar ( normally black rubber ), other chrome bits on the front seat... and the fact the badge on the seat reads "Piaggio" rather than "Aquilia" (sp?). Piaggio didn't make the saddle seat covers for any of their bikes...they outsourced most of these little parts to other companies.

This one was posted on the Scoot.net classifieds ( where viet-bikes are listed somewhat frequently )




1) Let's start with the fact that this bike was advertised as a VBB, but those are clearly super / sprint cowls and front fender. Please note the difference on this - VNB / VBB fender and cowls are really rounded and bubbly while Sprint / Super ones are more squared off and angular.

1.5) Another big way of telling an Asian restoration is that they tend to use 10" centerstands, even when the bike is an 8" wheeled bike. This leads to a bike that sits with it's front wheel 4-6" off the ground when on its centerstand. People often joke that it appears the bike is launching into space, it looks so rediculous.

2) Yellow centerstand boots ( again - the EASIEST way to tell )

3) Plastic PX centermat

4) 2-tone paintjob

5) That's a Rally 200 seat on there! I bet somebody ordered this from vietnam and this was something they added in the US, and now they are selling it.

6) Crashbars / rear rack / front fender guard ... what is it with the Vietnamese and dressing up a bike with cheap chrome?

7) FRONT LEGSHIELD GLOVEBOX on a model that never had one. The vietnamese do this like crazy...and if you pay really close attention you'll be able to recognize the glovebox immediately as it is something they fabricate themselves and sorta resembles a Rally or SS one, but is obvious to the keen eye that it is not a REAL one. ( true rally / SS / GS gloveboxes are rare and expensive )

These pictures come from Johnnybeware.com, who is one of the most infamous dealers of vietnamese scooters that are absolute shit-piles ...completely bondo bikes, and so incorrect that they hurt my eyes. If you want to learn what a viet-bike looks like, or want to know how NOT to make your restored bike look, that place is your one-stop-shop.





Oh...my...god... where to begin?

1) Alright, i don't even know what they are advertising this bike as, as it's an amalgam of about 5 different models. A fenderlight? Come-on. They are repopping the front-fender light in vietnam and slapping them on all sorts of non-fenderlight frames to make them look older and more rare. Wrong. Remember that the only true "Faro Basso" Italian Fenderlight models were from 1952 and before.

2) The chrome handlebar section - notice how the cables linkages are wrapped in steel tubing, and the switch is an actual 60's style switch? Wrong and Wrong. If it were real handlebars and not ones fabricated by 6 year olds chained to a table in a sand-floored hut, the switch would be an ULTRA EXPENSIVE green plastic box that mounts to the bar ..very rare, and obviously why they use a readily and cheaply availible switch unit. Steel tubing? No... it's supposed to be a white / grey colored ruber tubing with a few boots on the end to protect where they connect ...again - very EXPENSIVE parts, so that's why you don't see them in use.

3) That stupid winged chrome crest around the piaggio logo. Another big vietnamese accessory

3.5) Plastic PX centermat. They must have hijacked a shipment of these, because they put them on EVERY SINGLE BIKE.

4) The chrome beading that starts at the bottom of the legshield and runs around the floorboard to the back of the bike... another accessory you only tend to find on viet bikes

5) Chrome rear pillon seat frame. They use that one alot too.

6) uhhh 10" wheels, VBB cowls ( with the engine side hacked up like an old pre-'55 wideframe ), dressing it up so it APPEARS to look like an old handlebar wideframe, fenderlight,

Here's another one you can only see from this angle :

7) Rubber gasket around the lip of the glovebox door. Vespa never did this, but these restos always have it for some reason. I'm not saying it's not useful - i'm saying it's another telltale sign of a vietbike.

Oh, and for your edification, THIS is johnny beware, pictured sitting atop a scooter frame that has been completely coated in bondo....destined ultimately to some lucky buyer in the US who's going to pay $3000-$4000 for a spray-painted turd.

*edit* the following response is from Randall, the owner of Scootrs.com ...one of the largest of all the vietnamese scooter importers. If you were going to buy a vietnamese restoration, i suppose you're better off with Randall than with any of the other sellers. He's certainly more concerned about his reputation amongst the scooter community and regularly defends his company on scooterbbs.com and elsewhere, and deserves some credit as such.

Randall's responses are in Red.



I came across this thread via your link. I know these are only pointers (and good ones), but maybe mildly interesting to you if I can help clarify by commenting:

3) 2-tone paintjob / matching 2-tone seats. The asians are HUGE into matching seat upholstery with the paintjob. You don't see that much over here unless it's a theme bike. Many people over here refrain from doing 2-tone paintjobs anymore just because it LOOKS so asian and people don't want their bike confused for a Scootrs.com bike.

Some truly are horrendously garish or sickeningly twee, aren't they? I remember when I first came to Vietnam and wanted an LD and they were all black and an awful red with 2tone black/orange seats and such. In our case, customers configure the scooters as they want and vastly more want one color for Vespa but if they want 2tone, OK. The Vespas we do ouselves are normally one color, like when we started the whole VBB with LML engine thing a few years back. But the local shops like it, that's for sure, I assume because foreigners order them to sell over your way. And really, that white/green one would look nice if you removed all the stuff you note.

4) PX plastic centermat. For some dumb reason, the asians LOVE that centermat and put it on any and every bike they can.

That was because there were no rubber style mats here before. Now there are. We imported ours before. On the cheapest bodges they still do it because cheaper. Some American goes in to buy scooters from a local shop for a certain price to flip on ebay, so the local shop saves money wherever they can because not making much on it.

5) Chrome stinger on an otherwise stock-looking exhaust. Another thing the asians are all about for some reason.

Yup. Stainless steel, not chrome. We use them too and sell tons of those as parts overseas.

6) Generic chrome crashbars / front fender guard. Notice the little place where an emblem should go? Usually it would have a cuppini or a piaggio logo, but these guys didn't even bother with that... just a cheap knockoff.

It's not a knockoff, just another style crashbar. I really hate crashbars too, but people order them all the time.

7) The black gasket AROUND the lip of the gas tank. The asians have this weird black plastic trim that they wrap around the lip of the tank.

Because no gas tank gaskets around and cheap. We had to produce our own to use and sell.

>>The chrome gas-tank cap doesn't help either. This is supposed to be painted the color of the bike normally.

I guess most people like that. We make perfect repros of the gas cap ourselves in regular or stainless. Stainless outsells painted 30:1. Some people on US scooter forums - I don't mean anyone on this thread - are hyper purist (and hyper moralistic about it all), but most everyone else loves some bling. A few small chrome touches can be nice, not much.

8) Normally the speedo is a dead giveaway as the asians tend to use bad Veglia knock-off speedos that are REALLY OBVIOUS...or they will use bajaj speedo's that are black with weird Tron-style font... this one looks like an authentic one from this angle, though.

-it's actually a semi-crappy local repro cover, looks like, which means a decrepit "original" speedo under there. (Usually read decrepit also when they say "original" gears/crank/etc.) We did our own new speedos rather than import them. Sidenote: we were once sent some of those Tron ones from India before in an order, never could bring myself to use them, and dumped them on ebay last year - and people bid them up! Go figure.

5) That's a Rally 200 seat on there! I bet somebody ordered this from vietnam and this was something they added in the US, and now they are selling it.

It's just a PX seat from Nam on there with a cover made like that I think, that's all.

7) FRONT LEGSHIELD GLOVEBOX on a model that never had one. The vietnamese do this like crazy...

Because you guys love them apparently! We've sold TONS of gloveboxes over the years. Most people order their scooters with one. Actually more helpful on a Lambretta because you can do a dual-tank and lose the little toolbox. Now people are getting sick of them, I think.

7) Rubber gasket around the lip of the glovebox door. Vespa never did this, but these restos always have it for some reason. I'm not saying it's not useful - i'm saying it's another telltale sign of a vietbike.

Yup. We put it on the inside so completely unseen but protects the paint, and from water getting in. On the outside they look rather twee with the matching outside tank and glovebox ones.

You have to realize that scooters were like water here before. Plentiful and cheap, so no one cares about "destroying" something you regard as a valuable treasure. It was just another cheap scooter. Combine that with some non-subtle taste preferences. Then add Westerners going around to order them cheap to flip overseas. Now there are few scooters left, and people are getting into originality. You see some nice looking ones around town now. The bodges being flipped are still bad, but some look much better now at least in photos, so these pointers only help with the worst ones. Engines would be bad still. We've offered all new engine parts to a few ebay guys and they're not interested. Too expensive.

Just to give people a different perspective on what can possibly come from Vietnam, here are two VBB we did recently with entirely new 5-port cdi engines:

1) Cream for a friend here. I wouldn't allow him to choose anything he wanted except the color and whitewalls. Even here he gets stopped a lot and people take photos for magazines and such:



http://scootrs.com/library.cfm?id=203

2) Aviator gray went to Canada. Wanted it all stock so most items are painted. Quite a few photos of this one on site if interested:



http://scootrs.com/library.cfm?id=197

Hope it helps.

Btw, nice looking forum and website, whoever did it.

bwahaha...i LOVE this one. Some guy just posted it up on scooterbbs.


Notice something strange about the curvature of the frame behind the rear seat? Notice how the rear pillon seat sits elevated from the frame? Looks like a Wideframe, doesn't it? With the downward curve and no distinguishable flattened seat area like most largeframes have?

It's been bondo'd up to look like a wideframe. If you were to touch the back end of that bike with a magnet, it wouldn't stick from the 3" of bondo the maker slapped on there. How do i know it's a largeframe? Well, amongst about half a dozen other obvious reasons, from this angle look at the column lock on the front fork - it's pure 60's/70's. They never made a wideframe with that column lock on it - wideframes have those big 1.75" wide circular brass column locks.

It's up on it's already-too-large centerstand right now, so the rear seat actually looks level, but if you were to take this bike off the centerstand and sit on it, the rear seat would probably slope forward at a a serious angle.

Here's one that's a tough-call....i can't be sure whether it's ORIGINS are vietnamese, but it's certainly loaded up with vietnamese accessories and parts.

I found it on Scoot.net today :




1) Those crashbars on the front fender and around the legshield with the "P" piaggio badge - viet.

2) Front glovebox on a non-front glovebox model. Also note that the lock on the front glovebox is the tiny round one, like on GS160 Mk2's. I noticed recently that whenever the viet bikes have this repopped glovebox on it, the lock mechanism is the little round one. They use the same lock on the side glovebox.

3) See that little piece of crome that sits right under the headset, behind the legshield? It's a little scalloped piece that's actually welded to the frame, typically. The viet bikes all seem to have that piece chromed. I don't know why.

4) FABRIC FLOORMAT! Another huge one. If you see this nylon fabric floormat on a bike it's a pretty good chance it's asian.

5) Those chrome hub-cappy things. Asian.

6) No yellow standboots! I'm impressed...except that it's a P-series centerstand, it's been chromed, and it has p-series boots on it. That's pretty suspect.

7) Chrome gas cap, chrome seat grab, chrome rear seat holder, and that chrome trim that runs along the floor all the way to the cowls.

8) Looks like the exhaust is that Scootrs expansion pipe.

9) wrong grips, black taillight gasket ( i don't know that i've ever seen a black acorn tailight gasket before... )

Anyways... the jury is out on this one - could be a bad asian resto, could just be some guy who slapped a ton of asian parts on a bike to save money. The thing that seems like a giveaway to me that it *IS* asian is the fact the guy wants $3000 for a plain old VBB. I've seen people selling bone stock original paint VBB's for way less than that.

Perhaps something that i've not touched on in this entire thread is that the vietbikes that are coming into this country are sold to people over here - dealers or whoever, for $1800 each, and told to sell them for whatever they can get for them. Typically that's somewhere between 2500 and 3500. So, if you see a Sprint / Super / VBB, which should typically be the most AFFORDABLE vespas as they were mass-produced and readily availible, end up costing you as much as a really nice Rally, P200, or some similar solid bike.

Another good one someone posted on Modernvespa.com



No yellow boots on this one!

1) Two tone paint / non standard seat covers ...

2) Chrome scalloped piece on the front fork column under the headset

3) lots of chrome bits - thin crashbars, fender trim, legshield trim, seat parts, gas cap,

4) THE GLOVEBOX ..wow is that a funky lookin glovebox.

5) nylon floormat ( and where'd the brake pedal rubber go?)

i could go on, but if you've read through this thread you picked all this stuff out already.

Ah-HA! I finally found the thread on Scooterbbs where a user there contacted an American reseller / importer of these vietnamese bikes. It's a pretty telling back-and-forth.


I am the person who has posting mock ads on Scoot.net in a fight against those selling these Asian restored scooters. I think I have done it three times. Two of the times resulted in the removal of the ads of the scooter (while mine was removed also). The third mock ad I placed had me locked out of posting to Scoot.net by the website's operator. This is a real shame. If it were my website, would allow this kind of heckling. Mostly, because it is funny as hell - and second because it is a service to those looking to buy. I thought it was a good idea, but the webmaster of the site thinks otherwise?

I sent a message to the owner of the ad (Michael Sharette) at the address provided by the Scoot.net ad, italia.classic@gmail.com

First, my message to the seller:

************

Inspected and finished her?


Looks like Vietbodge from here. 60 miles and you are selling it? For $2950? Why not a flat $3000? Do you think the 2950 number is psychologically more attractive than 3000?

Take your dogshit to CraigsList and sell it, douchebag.

Christopher
***********

Now, the guy's response:


***********
Christopher...

Yeah. 2950 is more psychologically attractive to clients than 3000. I get these scooters for $1990. That includes the entire restoration, shipping, and even the little costs - like premium motor oil and a mixing cup.

Since I don't imagine you're a math whiz, I'll give you a hand: that's a $960 profit per scooter. This is the third one that I'll flip this month, and I plan on getting one more ordered before the 28th. That'll be four scooters, a total profit of just under 4 grand ($3840 for you non-math geniuses). Funny thing is, almost all my scooters are sold by referral and word of mouth. I only advertise online when I have a scooter that I customize for a client and they can't afford to buy it once it arrives (and since I imagine you're not exactly a marketing genius, I'll give you a little hint: referrals = relatively zero complaints).

I have no employees (so very little overhead) and I probably make more money than your dad ever did or you ever will, so have fun with your two-bit scooter shop, your two-bit scooter clubs, etc. Have fun being uneducated and growing old. Whine all you want. God bless America. God bless capitalism.

Mike
*************

Haven't made an addition to the thread in a while, but i got a lot of requests from people saying i should post up how to identify Asian lambretta restorations.

Alright, we'll start with this one i saw today.

It seemed innocent enough - an ebay auction from a seller in pittsburgh unloading a "Pacemaker" LI150 Special.





1) First off, do some research on your model. He states the vins for the bike to be : Frame # 150 LIS 264431 Engine number 150 Li 796829
The frame VIN on a Special should state 150LI3S versus just 150LI3 on the normal LI150’s, which it does... but VIN’s can be modified. Heck – it might even be a legitimate LI150 special, which were made from 1963 to 1966. It’s most certainly NOT a pacemaker ( which have a special badge on the and were released in miniscule numbers – those are highly sought after bikes for their gearboxes and collectability ) or even a Silver Special for that matter – another limited edition run of LI150 specials that had a silver “special” front badge on it.

This bike has an SX150 badge on it. But it’s not an SX150. Go figure... Wrong badge. The SX150 began production in 1966 when this bike ( the LI150 special ) ended production.

It also has the square innocenti horncast badge on it that was only used in 1969, which this bike obviously couldn’t have been from.

2) Two tone paint, tons of chrome, floorboard extenders, asian exhaust, etc. The typical suspects.

3) Attention to detail is bad on this one – even for a viet bike. Scootrs.com and Saigon Scooter Center ( the more reputable of the viet sellers ) typically will put disc brakes, dampners, etc – upgrades of sorts on there. Even if they don’t, they’ll at least use the correct glovebox lock. This one looks like the one they stick on VBB’s.

4) Do a little looking around on this bike. The guy says it has a california title and he bought it off of ebay. A search back a mere 2 months reveals the SAME SCOOTER on ebay being sold by the california seller / viet importer. Sold originally on ebay for $3000. This guy is trying to just unload it after he considers it a big mistake he made ...he told DJ in pittsburgh he’d give it to him for $1500 ... But DJ knows better than to take on a money pit.

have a look at the auction for more pics.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 71390&rd=1

Here's a great site i just found today when looking for a picture of that TV200 from Vietnam that had snapped in half at the frame tube to post up here.

http://www.scoot-central.com/11.html


I think this is a pretty fair and balanced report card of different Vietnamese sellers over there, and it sums up much of what i say in my above statements : if you HAVE to buy a vietnamese scooter, then at least buy one from Scootrs. It was the only seller out of the 6-10 reviews on that site that actually had a decent review. Everyone else was really dissatisfied with the products they had received from other sellers.

Plus, there's tons of pictures showing you the working conditions over there. It's amazing ...scooters piled high to the roof of the grass huts, people working barefoot on dirt floors, etc.

Another depressing story from recent days :

A new guy on Modern Vespa showed up with a '66 Super, admittedly purchased from vietnam. The engine had already failed within 100 miles, and the front suspension was JB Welded together. He was buying another engine and wanted to know what else he should do with it. People told him to get rid of it and move on before he wasted more money.

Well, not even off of page one of the thread, he tries to move the scooter ( not even ride, but MOVE it within his house. ) and the bondo flakes off of his bike, revealing cracks in the frame that apparently extend all the way up to the rear shock mount. This frame is destined for the trash, and if the other parts on the bike are in this sort of condition or wear, the whole thing should go to a junkyard.



here's the original thread : http://www.modernvespa.com/forum/topic41865

Cracklin' viet frames :